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#593777 - 12/04/11 11:14 PM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Star Wars, as much fun as it is, is nothing but the sum of other stories parts.

I can't seem to remember... how many issues did the Marvel Comics version of Scaramouche run?
You might want to look up the word "relevance"

Which sold more comics, or licensing revenue in general even, isn't relevant to a discussion of what is or isn't homage. The question here is whether or not the borrowed material in Star Wars is, just a tip of the hat to it's various sources, or because of the sheer volume and scope of the material that it borrows from, is SW just a derivative film without any substance of it's own. I think it's somewhere in the middle.

I don't see how which sold more comics, Star Wars or Scaramouche, is relevant to any of this.

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#593778 - 12/04/11 11:38 PM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Joe Lee]
Charles Reece Offline
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I met Gil Kane at a Dallas Con when I was a wee lad. No one was in his line (philistines), so I was able to just walk up to him, chat, and have him sign a Spidey comic in a very casual manner. He was the nicest pro I ever met at a con.
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#593780 - 12/04/11 11:45 PM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Charles Reece]
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
As for the originality of Star Wars, watching Hidden Fortress isn't any where near the same experience. Nor is watching or reading any of its other sources. There is a point where you borrow from so many places that it's no longer a mere summation. SW certainly isn't the most sophisticated of films, nor the most innovative, nor even particularly well written, but even after all the films I've seen, there's none that quite works in the same way. It does its own thing.
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#593784 - 12/05/11 12:23 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Charles Reece]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
As for the originality of Star Wars, watching Hidden Fortress isn't any where near the same experience. Nor is watching or reading any of its other sources. There is a point where you borrow from so many places that it's no longer a mere summation.
I would agree with you here except for the summation. The individual parts are so obviously and carefully preserved, but it's the quality of Lucas' presentation that makes SW all work together despite the disparate ideas, and parts.

Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
SW certainly isn't the most sophisticated of films, nor the most innovative, nor even particularly well written, but even after all the films I've seen, there's none that quite works in the same way. It does its own thing.
I'll have to disagree with you there, if only a little. I think where SW becomes it's own thing is in the craftsmanship, the writing and presentation. I think it's blatantly derivative, but I give it credit for being better written. Like the difference between a good and bad collage art, when I watch SW I now see the various parts from all the pieces, (now that I've read or seen them}, but it's served up so well I still love it. That's in part a credit to Lucas' writing. Lucas doesn't bother to write it well enough to disguise it's sources but he writes it well enough to do it better than it had been done before, and write it better, by selecting the bits better, weaving them together to hit the right beats. Maybe packages it better too, visually, compositionally, pacing and fx. All better than the source materials he borrows from.

They tried a similar thing with Independence Day and Silverado, take all the best scenes from movies out a particular genre, and mash them together. Lucas obviously did a much better job. He went to many genres and mediums and was much better at selecting and presentation.

Has Lucas ever admitted to reading Joseph Campbell?

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#593785 - 12/05/11 01:04 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7089
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Which sold more comics, or licensing revenue in general even, isn't relevant to a discussion of what is or isn't homage.

Make up your mind what we're talking about. You said SW was *NOTHING BUT* the sum of other stories' parts. And that's bullshit. Somehow, many other creators have managed to build further upon it, but one example being the Marvel Comics SW series. So you are obviously wrong.
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#593788 - 12/05/11 01:37 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Make up your mind what we're talking about. You said SW was *NOTHING BUT* the sum of other stories' parts. And that's bullshit. Somehow, many other creators have managed to build further upon it, but one example being the Marvel Comics SW series. So you are obviously wrong.
No. We were talking about SW being derivative or not. You make up your mind whether you want to discuss this or just argue with me, by picking any nit to do it.

And could you fix the HTML in your above post.

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#593792 - 12/05/11 02:43 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Joe Lee]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
@Joe Lee

Thanks for the recommendation on that book. Just checked out the artists...wow! I'm buying that book. The art is just the right mix of old school pulp and exotic sci-fi.

It's too bad about the Dynamite books. I wanted to buy the Deja Thoris issues, just on the covers alone, but they're really squandering the imaginative potential of the property, IMO. The Ray Bradbury Comics had much better portrayals of Mars.



The illustration I think was for the first edition because it was on amazon awhile back for like $1,000, and there's an audio edition that uses the same cover.
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#593796 - 12/05/11 03:03 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Gerald]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Apparently "Mars" has some sort of stigma attached to it...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/12/05/a...st-john-carter/

The director changed the title from "Princess of Mars" because he felt the word "Princess" would chase all the boys away, and he changed it from "John Carter of Mars" because he felt the word "Mars" would chase all the girls away.

Over-thinking this a wee little? Does he honestly think people won't know it's some kind of action, adventure, sci-fi film until they've already bought a ticket? Or was he actually afraid people would see the trailer and get confused that the title said "princess" but the hero was a guy?

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#593799 - 12/05/11 03:15 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Gerald]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Gerald
It's too bad about the Dynamite books. I wanted to buy the Deja Thoris issues, just on the covers alone, but they're really squandering the imaginative potential of the property, IMO.
I saw Marvel has an officially licensed comic too, I didn't like the cover. It seemed really just too cartoony. What's with Dynamite doing unlicensed Edgar Rice Burroughs comics? I read they were doing an unlicensed Tarzan comic too. I can't imagine the ERB estate is very happy with them.



Edited by Joe Lee (12/05/11 03:20 AM)
Edit Reason: found cover pic online

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#593801 - 12/05/11 03:52 AM Re: New John Carter trailer... [Re: Gerald]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Gerald
The illustration I think was for the first edition because it was on amazon awhile back for like $1,000, and there's an audio edition that uses the same cover.
Very cool.

Have you seen it with the magazine or book graphics. The only ones I could find were several variations on a dust jacket so my guess is you're probably right it was the first edition book cover, and several subsequent ones as well.


I did find some fun covers from early All Story magazines from the later mars novels, but none for Princess of Mars or "Under the Moons of Mars" the original title (just found that out tonight while hunting around).





Edited by Joe Lee (12/05/11 03:59 AM)

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