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#596093 - 02/21/12 12:56 PM Fun with Milton Friedman
Charles Reece Offline
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This is fun:



Uncle Milt suggests that black poverty would be helped by businesses being able to pay them less, not more -- that said poverty is the result, not of the people, but government intervention. Not once does he mention that said intervention was the result of classic liberals making arguments like chattel slavery being a sign of liberty, turning those arguments into law, and that many of "the people" supported the law. Now, he's always making the point that capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, but is there ever an instance where support for radical capitalism isn't based on the exclusion of some group from the argument as to its benefits?
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#596094 - 02/21/12 01:17 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Charles Reece]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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He's so right about welfare creating poverty. Remember how we did away with federal welfare programs in the 90s, and now there's no more poor people? Such wisdom he had for us.
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#596095 - 02/21/12 02:08 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Lawson Offline
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Friedman says gub'mint is the problem, unless he needs a job.

During the Great Depression, young Milton Friedman was unable to find academic employment. So in 1935, he followed his friend W. Allen Wallis to Washington, D.C., where President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was becoming "a lifesaver for many young economists."

In the years that followed, Friedman supported himself and his family by working for the National Resources Committee, which was then creating a large consumer budget survey; the National Bureau of Economic Research; the University of Wisconsin–Madison; and the U.S. Department of the Treasury.

As a Treasury spokesman during World War Two, Friedman advocated a Keynesian policy of taxation, and during this time he helped to invent the payroll withholding tax system that remains in effect today.

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#596105 - 02/22/12 02:06 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Charles Reece Offline
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That's a good point. I went to a museum (privately owned, of course) to see what one of these poor black people looked like. Evidently, Compton was once filled with what were called "gangs" that identified themselves with the colors of the two major political parties in the US.
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#596107 - 02/22/12 02:21 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
Charles Reece Offline
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In fairness, Lawson, once economic scholars start thinking for themselves, they can get funding from big business.
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#596113 - 02/22/12 10:20 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Charles Reece]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
In fairness, Lawson, once economic scholars start thinking for themselves, they can get funding from big business.


Heh!

I'm 40 years old, I have worked since age 15, and I've never collected a single paycheck from a government entity. I've been private sector all the way.

And every day, I hear conservative politicians bash the gub'mint -- the goddamned, worthless gub'mint! -- and they have held public office for their entire lives. Taxpayers have provided their salaries, benefits and pensions.

I can think of a few Republican leaders in Congress who haven't been off a government payroll since they graduated college in the 1960s. But that goddamned gub'mint!

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#596120 - 02/23/12 01:23 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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I saw a fun chart on msnbc last weekend. It showed areas in the USA with the highest numbers of people that received government or other assistance for their income, which included everything from welfare, food stamps, free meals at schools, to government and publicly supported medicine, and clinics like planned parenthood, and it showed that the states with the areas of highest concentrations were largely red states.

Meaning the people benefiting from government and other sorts of assistance for their income are largely poor white republicans. One of the pundits jokingly feigned outrage that his urban, liberal, black, academic elite taxpayer dollars were going from NYC to the largely republican, rural south.

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#596121 - 02/23/12 09:32 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Meaning the people benefiting from government and other sorts of assistance for their income are largely poor white republicans.


This is old news, but still, very true.

Harvard used to do a study on occasion looking at federal tax payments from state to state. Invariably, the left-leaning Blue states were the donor states -- their citizens sent more money to Washington in taxes than they collected in federal services and benefits -- and the right-learning Red states were the debtor states, or welfare mooches, if you wish, sucking more federal goodies from Washington than they contributed in taxes.

Truth is, the states that scream about states' rights the loudest cannot support themselves. They depend on New York, California and other smart, hard-working states to give them handouts.

Similarly, the most conservative person I know on Comicon relies on the federal government to provide him with a paycheck, health benefits and room and board. He could not survive outside of Uncle Sam's sheltering embrace.

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#596122 - 02/23/12 11:53 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
Charles Reece Offline
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I just ran across this:
Quote:
In The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism, Theda Skocpol and Vanessa Williamson, Harvard scholars who have interviewed adherents of the new insurgency in different regions of the country, report that

fully 83% of South Dakota Tea Party supporters said they would prefer to “leave alone” or “increase” Social Security benefits, while 78% opposed cuts to Medicare prescription drug coverage, and 79% opposed cuts in Medicare payments to physicians and hospitals…. 56% of the Tea Party supporters surveyed did express support for “raising income taxes by 5% for everyone whose income is over a million dollars a year.”

These views, which are aligned with those of moderate Republicans and Democrats, corroborate the findings in a 2010 New York Times poll of Tea Partiers, which concluded: “Despite their push for smaller government, they think that Social Security and Medicare are worth the cost to taxpayers.”

[...]

With one exception, Skocpol and Williamson write, “not a single grassroots Tea Party supporter we encountered argued for privatization of Social Security or Medicare,” pet projects of a conservative legislator like Paul Ryan and of organizations like FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity. The Republican aspirants have adapted to these internal contradictions. They attack Obama for increasing government spending and at the same time for trimming $500 billion from Medicare.

The impracticality of this war against government, which in fact offers no serious plan to scale government back, suggests that the conservative populism of our moment is rooted not in a coherent worldview so much as in a “mood” or atmosphere of generalized, undifferentiated protest.
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#596123 - 02/23/12 11:58 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Charles Reece]
Lawson Offline
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Many Tea Party activists with whom I've spoken want government spending to be cut elsewhere, for other people.

The government spending that benefits themselves, their families and their communities is their just due! What they don't like, see, is all that money going to blacks and Mexicans.

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#596124 - 02/23/12 12:01 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
Charles Reece Offline
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Added a bit, which only supports what you've said.
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#596125 - 02/23/12 12:06 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Charles Reece]
Charles Reece Offline
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Have you seen the doc Hot Coffee, Lawson? It's along the lines of the What's the Matter with Kansas?, but about tort reform. There's a funny anecdote in there about a guy in Texas who voted for caps on damages, and then got completely fucked when he was injured through malpractice. His reaction was that he voted against frivolous lawsuits, not the legitimate ones like his own.
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#596126 - 02/23/12 12:10 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Charles Reece]
Lawson Offline
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Loc: Lexington, Ky.
I'm acquainted with a politician who pushed hard for $250,000 damage caps in all medical malpractice cases. Nobody needs more than $250,000, he argued. It's anti-business.

Then, when a member of his immediate family was hurt by a sloppy doctor, a malpractice lawsuit was filed seeking $1 million in damages.

"It's different when it's family," he explained to me.

But everyone is someone's family.

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#596140 - 02/24/12 02:25 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
shjonescrk Offline
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The simple way to cut Government spending & raise more in taxes in both the US and UK is to stop fighting wars and legalize drugs & tax them.

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#596142 - 02/24/12 03:29 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: shjonescrk]
Lawson Offline
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I'm in favor of fewer wars. Most of the countries we invade and occupy, we do so needlessly and at terrible cost.

On drugs, I'm OK with legalizing and taxing marijuana. Some of the harder drugs, like meth and crack cocaine, not so much. I'd rather not legalize the drugs that kill people. Bad enough we've got tobacco.

That said, I favor emphasis on court-ordered addiction treatment rather than criminal prosecution, and when there are prosecutions, I'd rather see dealers go to prison, not the addicts whose crime was possession of small amounts. I've seen the numbers. Our state and federal prisons would be greatly relieved if we did not lock up anyone for marijuana or for simple possession of other drugs.

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#596151 - 02/25/12 06:29 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
ChrisW Offline
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Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Similarly, the most conservative person I know on Comicon relies on the federal government to provide him with a paycheck, health benefits and room and board. He could not survive outside of Uncle Sam's sheltering embrace.


Yeah, there's a lot of civil servants out there who dare to think differently than the prevailing liberal orthodoxy. I dunno how many got jobs with the fed right out of high school and never did anything with their lives like you're describing. Those sound more like the liberal teachers/affirmative action/union cliques that have such a stranglehold on the Democratic party, and I don't see you criticizing them.

Of course an open-minded journalist like yourself who makes shit up about people in public anyway probably waits to be informed about stuff like that. You do with everything that's actually news. What's going to happen when Democrats are out of power? I bet you'll be mingling with Lois Lane and Ben Urich to ferret out the evils of government behind-the-scenes then. Those Republicans probably even support Gitmo and killing American citizens, so how could they be trusted?


Edited by ChrisW (02/25/12 06:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Morgan Edge forced a re-write
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#596152 - 02/25/12 11:23 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: ChrisW]
Charles Reece Offline
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"I don't see you criticizing them"

If you don't cry about needing to shrink big government, then there's not the hypocrisy of your being on the government teat. It's like a soldier sympathizing with the militia against the police state.
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#596168 - 02/27/12 10:00 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: ChrisW]
Lawson Offline
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Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Yeah, there's a lot of civil servants out there who dare to think differently than the prevailing liberal orthodoxy. I dunno how many got jobs with the fed right out of high school.


I've known a lot of federal government employees. They all had college degrees. So as to how many got jobs with the fed right out of high school, I'd say zero.

Also along those lines, should the need arise, most of them could find comparable work in the private sector because they are educated and have practical, useful work experience.

And then there's you. Enjoy the drawdown! grin

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#596171 - 02/27/12 03:28 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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With the repeal of DADT, Weemie now has more options to demonstrate his worth.
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#596179 - 02/27/12 09:28 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Don't worry, President Sanitorium will repeal the repeal of DADT. That won't be confusing or weird at all.

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#596431 - 03/14/12 06:10 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: Joe Lee]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Also along those lines, should the need arise, most of them could find comparable work in the private sector because they are educated and have practical, useful work experience.

And then there's you. Enjoy the drawdown!


Has your policy of 'make shit up about people you disagree with' lead to any big scoops lately? Better get cracking or Lois Lane's gonna get the front page.

Seriously, can I please see your evidence that I have no education or practical, useful work experience? You publicly lie about my employment, my workplace, my duties, my responsibilities and my service record, and you pretend to be a journalist when all you are is a liberal who hates poor people and the military.

Quote:
If you don't cry about needing to shrink big government, then there's not the hypocrisy of your being on the government teat. It's like a soldier sympathizing with the militia against the police state.


Or a journalist using his free speech to tear down the very people who bleed or die for his free speech. Or a pacifist who uses any right won on a battlefield? Or a liberal who wants the law to force other people to pay for something inside her uterus but wants the law kept off her uterus.

You can think the government is too big and still see national security as a vital element of the country. Liberals disagree, but they're allowed to kill you with Predator drones in a country that never attacked us on 9/11 so that's all right.


Edited by ChrisW (03/14/12 06:11 AM)
Edit Reason: Michelle Malkin has a big fat hairy set of balls in her mouth
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#596432 - 03/14/12 06:14 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: ChrisW]
ChrisW Offline
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By the way, I've just noticed that a lot of people have avatars that are flipping people off. Is it really that important that comicon.com look like it's filled with outrageous assholes?

There's gotta be a more welcoming way to talk about comics. Just saying, is all...
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#596439 - 03/14/12 11:35 AM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Or a liberal who wants the law to force other people to pay for something inside her uterus but wants the law kept off her uterus.

But, once again, Weemie doesn't listen to Rush Limbaugh.
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#596442 - 03/14/12 12:17 PM Re: Fun with Milton Friedman [Re: ChrisW]
Charles Reece Offline
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Originally Posted By: me
If you don't cry about needing to shrink big government, then there's not the hypocrisy of your being on the government teat. It's like a soldier sympathizing with the militia against the police state.


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Or a journalist using his free speech to tear down the very people who bleed or die for his free speech. Or a pacifist who uses any right won on a battlefield? Or a liberal who wants the law to force other people to pay for something inside her uterus but wants the law kept off her uterus.


If you're admitting to hypocrisy, then, yes, we agree.

David Cole's "An Executive Power to Kill?"

Elizabeth Drew's "The Politics of Safe Sex"

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