Talking ‘Dark City Dames’ With Author And TCM Host Eddie Muller

Whether they were known for playing femme fatales (Audrey Totter) or the one person who might be able to change their man’s ways (Evelyn Keyes), the six woman profiled in Eddie Muller‘s book, Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir, are huge contributors to why the genre remains heralded to this day. Muller’s book doesn’t just cover their careers during the studio era but considers their lives post-Hollywood and whether they left the business on their own volition or because they were forced out. In this revised and expanded edition (the book was originally published in 2001), the Noir Alley host has gotten to add ten more actresses to its pages and here’s what he had to share about the changes:

Rachel Bellwoar: In the Acknowledgements you write about having wanted to republish this book for years. What changed or finally came together to make this edition see the light of day?

Eddie Muller: I’m glad it took so long. If this book, as well as Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir, which was originally published in 1998, had been reissued before I got the hosting gig on Turner Classic Movies, neither would have been as good or sold as well. Running Press, which publishes movie books under the TCM imprint, has been a great fit for me. My editor, Cindy Sipala, understands what I do and she’s a wonderful collaborator. At first I was concerned that they might shy away from Dames because for a book about Hollywood actresses its reads like a novel — or a series of novellas. Instead they asked for more words, having me add the new profiles of ten other actresses. A lot of fans buy movie books because they want to swim in the nostalgia of old Hollywood, and while I understand that, I’m more interested in diving in deeper water, and I’m happy to be working with a publisher who appreciates that and lets me play in the deep end of the pool — and also write children’s stories and cocktail manuals!

Bellwoar: While it’s easier to identify the expanded parts (like the ten new profiles and the afterward), what was your approach to revisions? Sometimes opening the floodgates and allowing yourself to edit past work can get out of control. How was your experience here? 

Muller: The original profiles weren’t changed much at all, just a few minor corrections I was pleased to make. I resisted the urge to go back to all the audio tapes I have and start finagling. I’m decisive with my prose, so I’d didn’t do a lot of tinkering. The biggest challenge was re-sourcing images. The actresses had loaned me lots of personal photos for the original edition, which I returned to them after they were scanned and incorporated in the book. Unfortunately, they’re all gone now — and so are those photos. And in the twenty years between editions technology changed so much that my original files either disappeared or became obsolete! I’ve gone through six or seven laptops since then and even more external storage devices. That’s why there’s more differences between the images than the words in the two editions.

I feel like the biggest difference between the two editions was the emergence of the “Me Too” movement, which will color younger readers’ reaction to the book. Powerful men trying to exert dominance over women is nothing new, but the book serves as a bridge between an era when such behavior was tacitly endorsed, and today, where despite the current administration’s attempts to institutionalize misogyny, such manipulative chauvinism is no longer condoned by the majority of the public.

Bellwoar: In choosing which actresses to add, did you have any rules? The original six, for example, had to agree to being interviewed. Was there any criteria this time around?

Muller: I was concerned at first that the new profiles wouldn’t be a good fit because, of course, they weren’t based on extensive interviews of the kind I did with the six main subjects. But Running Press wanted new material, so it could promote a “Revised and Expanded Edition,” and I soon realized that these shorter profiles served as counterpoint to the main stories. The six main players — Jane Greer, Audrey Totter, Marie Windsor, Evelyn Keyes, Coleen Gray, and Ann Savage — had all survived into their seventies when I collaborated with them. So, despite all the trauma and tribulations they encountered in their lives, they’d won. They survived and enjoyed the “last hurrah” that the film noir revival gave them. Some of the women profiled in the new section weren’t so lucky, and contrasting their stories to the original six gives the book an added poignancy. I realized that many readers won’t know the life stories of these women; their sad demises will come as a shock, and you appreciate the fortitude of the primary six all the more.

Of course, I also included some women that I did come to know pretty well, like Rhonda Fleming and Marsha Hunt and, to a lesser extent, Jan Sterling and Claire Trevor. So even though those profiles aren’t as rich as the main ones, they are definitely informed by my personal experiences with these women.

Bellwoar: I was especially excited to see Ella Raines make the cut. What made you choose her?

Muller: She’s a personal favorite. She was unique in that she played independent, self-reliant women in a genre noted for relegating women to “bad girls” and “good girls.” Her characters seem decades ahead of the curve, both in attitude and style. She was the first one I added to the new section, and that was before I delved into her personal life, which, while not as dark as some of the others, just broke my heart. She lived a life that to the public seemed like a storybook romance — gorgeous movie star marries war hero fighter pilot — but after twenty or so years she admitted to herself that she never really liked him. She ended up choosing to live, and die, alone.

Bellwoar: When it comes to prepping for interviews, is there a routine you generally follow or does it really depend on the subject?

Muller: It depends entirely on how much time I have, both to prepare and to engage. I’ve done interviews in public with only minutes to prep. Usually before or after movies. In those cases, the goal is to provide the audience with just enough context to enhance the experience, and to let them get a sense of the person you’re talking with. It’s kind of like being a lawyer in court—you’re asking questions you already know the answer to, and you’re trying to get the subject to reveal those things. A book is totally different. I don’t want to be too prepared. I want to have the time to discover things you never knew or suspected; I don’t work from an agenda, I just see where it goes. And hopefully, along the way, you earn their trust. Then suddenly they’re telling you something they’ve never told anyone. I had that experience with every one of these women. When you read the book you can feel those parts, palpably. Jane Greer’s sons were very surprised at all the things she revealed, some very painful. When she died they gave copies of the book to everyone attending her memorial service. That was the greatest compliment.

Bellwoar: How much did having more time to conduct these interviews (having originally profiled these stars for the LA Times) change the types of stories you were able to pull?

Muller: Well, I just answered that. But I’ll add this (and note that the original profiles were for Los Angeles magazine, not the LA Times): For somebody whose work as a journalist usually involved interviews done for daily or weekly publications, having the chance to really spend time with people is a wonderful luxury. You not only learn more, you have a chance to live with the material and find more creative ways to tell the stories. The book has a unique structure that wouldn’t have been possible if I’d been obligated to work faster. Creating the book was very much like making a movie: working with actors, figuring out how to structure these flashbacking narratives, finding the narrative through-lines, maintaining the pace, setting up the emotional beats, all that.

Bellwoar: You wrote that you came out of these interviews a better listener. How has that come into play in your work since?

Muller: Honestly, I’d say becoming a better listener has had more impact on my personal life than my work. I’ve become acutely aware of the way some men — and I’m tempted to say most men — just talk right over women; they’d don’t have the slightest idea how patronizing and disrespectful it is. It’s because nothing a woman has to offer can be as important as what they have to say. “Mansplaining,” as Rebecca Solnit coined. Men love to hear themselves talk, even when what they’re saying is just boring bullshit. I’ve found women to be more concise communicators because they must choose their words more wisely to fit them in and around male blather.

Bellwoar: Did you ever consider writing a second book focused on the actors of noir or was there less interest (or maybe less willingness at the time by those actors to be interviewed this way)?

Muller: Well, my profile of Evelyn Keyes in Dark City Dames led directly to her suggesting to Tab Hunter that I collaborate with him on his autobiography. That was another great learning experience, since I was a straight guy entrusted with telling the life story of one of Hollywood’s most closeted gay men. Dames prepared me for the two-year journey I had writing that book. That’s the only book I’ve done that made the New York Times bestsellers list.

As for a book similar to Dames but about the men of film noir, it won’t happen. Sure, I’d have loved to profile Robert Mitchum, Robert Ryan, Richard Widmark, … but guys don’t live as long as women. By the time I was in a position to write such a book, they were all gone. I wonder if they’d have been as open about their lives as the gals were. Maybe if it was a woman telling their stories. We’ll never know. I’m able to talk about guys like Richard Conte, Lawrence Tierney, and Steve Cochran as part of my hosting gigs, both on TCM and at my own NOIR CITY festivals, but at this point I think that’s as far as it’s going to go.

Bellwoar: Thanks for agreeing to this interview, Eddie!

Dark City Dames: The Women Who Defined Film Noir (Revised and Expanded Edition) is available now from TCM and Running Press.